Estimated read time: 5-6 minutes
SALT LAKE CITY — It's a common worry in Utah politics that liberal Californians are moving into the state and bringing their political preferences and culture with them.
In response to concerns about high housing prices, Gov. Spencer Cox said in February he "would love to build a wall around our state — and get California to pay for it," a winking adaptation of former President Donald Trump's 2016 campaign pledge on securing the southern U.S. border.
Migration from California and other states is a factor in rising home prices, per the U.S. Census Bureau, but concerns that incoming residents are changing the political makeup of the Beehive State as thoroughly conservative are overblown, according to Sen. Mike Lee, R-Utah. In fact, during a recent interview with former Fox News host Tucker Carlson, Lee said those moving into the state from California are actually "more conservative" than many longtime Utahns.
In the same wide-ranging interview, released Tuesday on X, Lee also talked about how he witnessed President Joe Biden's "cognitive decline," said he is not a fan of voter initiatives and criticized the Utah Supreme Court's recent unanimous decision on redistricting.
Lee cited internal polling done during his 2022 reelection campaign he said shows most California transplants are "self-selecting" Utah for its conservative politics. Toward the end of the two-hour conversation, Carlson said it was a "mistake" for Utah not to have built a "wall on your western border to keep Californians out" and asked if the state has plans to bar Californians from voting for a "couple decades" when they first move to Utah.
Lee said the Constitution protects citizens' ability to move across state lines and was skeptical of a temporary ban on voting for people who move across state lines, but he did push back on the idea that Californians are making Utah more liberal.
"Some of that happens, but some of it has been surprising," he said, adding that his campaign did polling in 2022 that contradicted that idea.
"When we drilled down on the cross tabs and we evaluated those who had moved in from out of state — including a whole lot who have moved in from California — we were shocked at how conservative they were. Many, if not most of them, were more conservative, more supportive of me, than a lot of people who have lived in Utah for many decades."
He said many people moving away from California are disaffected by the state's policy "failures," and are not trying to recreate those policies elsewhere.
"You're not necessarily going to choose Utah as your next place to live if what you're seeking is another progressive nirvana," he said. "So, they tend to be self-selecting. They're voting with their feet. ... Obviously, there are exceptions, but by and large, those who have chosen to move to Utah from California recently, I believe, lean more conservative."
Everyone in Washington knew Joe Biden was senile. At times he couldn't operate a cell phone. Sen. Mike Lee was there.
— Tucker Carlson (@TuckerCarlson) July 30, 2024
(0:00) Obama Kicking Biden Out
(8:13) Biden's Impairment
(20:33) Biden's Scripted Phone Calls
(23:17) The Federal Government Is Too Powerful
(36:02) The… pic.twitter.com/MxObwUhfOy
Concerns about Utah's Supreme Court ruling on redistricting
Even if Californians aren't shifting Utah's politics to the left, Lee said he is concerned that something is: A recent ruling by the Supreme Court that found lawmakers overreached when they altered a citizen ballot initiative that established an independent commission to help draw political boundaries every 10 years.
In her majority opinion, Justice Paige Petersen said the Utah Constitution "demonstrates that the people's exercise of their right to reform the government through an initiative is constitutionally protected from government infringement, including legislative amendment or repeal that impairs the intended form."
Lee and Carlson had previously expressed disdain for "experts," and Lee said the commission would give "unelected, unaccountable experts" the ability to draw new maps during the redistricting process, which he said would inevitably move the boundaries "further to the left."
"I'm not a big fan of voter initiatives. We've got a republican form of government, we shouldn't dilute it with these — got legislatures for a reason, I think it's better to have them do it," he said. "But regardless, it's allowed under our state Constitution; it passed."
He criticized the decision by the court — which was unanimous — noting that all five justices were appointed by Republican governors.
"All five of them recently agreed that the Legislature's modification of the original redistricting reform was unconstitutional under our state Constitution," he said. "This is how we get brought into a progressive system — bit by bit by bit — by the appeal, the allure of the scientific expertise."
Lee said he witnessed Biden's 'cognitive decline'
Carlson began the interview by asking Lee about the recent decision by President Joe Biden to withdraw from seeking reelection. Lee previously said the decision "feels like cheating" because Biden opted to finish his current term.
The senator said he has long known that Biden was impaired, "just based on things that I saw from a distance." Lee said he noticed at some point in 2021 that Biden's gait and posture was similar to his mother-in-law's when she was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease.
"It wouldn't necessarily be reflective of his cognitive decline, but then I saw plenty of reasons to believe there was cognitive decline happening as well," he said. "They kept him shielded not only from the public and from nonfriendly press, but also from members of Congress."
Lee said Biden called him early in his administration to discuss plans to expand the Bears Ears and Grand Staircase-Escalante national monuments in Utah.
"A short time into the phone conversation, I could tell he was reading from a script and not only reading from a script, but his voice would start to trail off at the end of each sentence," he said.
As for Vice President Kamala Harris, now the presumptive Democratic nominee, Lee said "she's actually pretty good," though he disagrees with "almost everything she said."
"She could win, there's no question about it," he said. "And Republicans would make a huge mistake by discounting her."
